14:32:54 I'm going to introduce our

14:32:58 executive director, Jorge L. Baron

14:32:59 He's been the

14:33:01 executive director since 2008. 

14:33:02 He's going to share a little

14:33:03 bit about the background and

14:33:05 introduce my colleagues.  Thank

14:33:09 you so much,
14:33:12  Jorge. Thank you

14:33:13 Rebecca and thank you for

14:33:14 joining us.  It is great to see

14:33:15 the high number of people

14:33:16 attending the sessions and I'm

14:33:17 sure there are more watching

14:33:18 this and some of you are

14:33:20 watching later  on.  So we

14:33:22 appreciate taking the time to

14:33:25 talk about a very serious topic

14:33:27 about immigration tension and

14:33:28 some of the work we're doing

14:33:29 specifically at the northwest

14:33:33 -- the detention center ICE
14:33:34  and

14:33:35 northwest ICE processing

14:33:39 centered.  I
14:33:42  I'm honored to be

14:33:44 part of this and I have been

14:33:45 Executive Director for laugh

14:33:47 last 12 years many as some of

14:33:48 you know, the issue of

14:33:49 immigration detention is close

14:33:51 to my heart because I started

14:33:53 my time in the Tacoma Office

14:33:56 where we'll be joined in a

14:33:58 minute by my colleagues so

14:33:59 started my career working with

14:34:02 people who are detained at the

14:34:04 Northwest Detention Center and

14:34:08 you know have seen how the
14:34:11 place has grown over the years

14:34:14 and understand very intensely

14:34:16 how you know bad the situation

14:34:19 is there and unfortunately

14:34:21 despite all of the -- as we'll

14:34:22 talk about today, despite the

14:34:26 fact that you know the pandemic

14:34:28 is -- has stopped so many

14:34:30 things in the lives of the

14:34:32 community or around the country

14:34:33 and around the world,

14:34:34 immigration detention

14:34:35 unfortunately continues and

14:34:36 we'll talk a little bit about

14:34:38 the specific impact of the

14:34:40 pandemic is having on people

14:34:41 inside the detention center and

14:34:43 the concerns we have about the

14:34:44 situation there.  But before we

14:34:47 go further I happen to

14:34:48 introduce two of my colleagues

14:34:51 that are going to be answering

14:34:53 questions and sharing

14:34:54 information because they work

14:34:56 directly with people at the

14:34:58 immigration detention center. 

14:34:59 First I want to introduce my

14:35:01 colleague, Tim Warden-Hertz,

14:35:03 who is the Directing Attorney

14:35:05 in the Tacoma Office.  Tim,

14:35:05 would you like to share a

14:35:07 little bit about yourself?

14:35:09 » Tim:  Sure.  Thanks, Jorge. 

14:35:11 I'm Tim Warden-Hertz.  I have

14:35:13 been the director attorney for

14:35:16 the office down here in Tacoma

14:35:18 for a bit over six and a half

14:35:21 years and with anywhere seven

14:35:25  NWIRP for
14:35:25  search and

14:35:27 a half.  I was working in

14:35:28 Massachusetts before coming

14:35:32 here and it has been a lot of
14:35:34 changes over the years but

14:35:37 certainly the changes and

14:35:38 unfortunately I think sort of

14:35:40 lack of changes in some ways

14:35:44 has certainly been a major

14:35:48 issue for us in our work and

14:35:50 sort of lives of our clients in

14:35:52 detention and I'm excited to

14:35:53 share a little bit about that

14:35:54 today.

14:35:56 » Jorge:  Great, thank you,

14:35:57 Tim.  Also joining us is Lesly

14:35:59 Avila, who is one of our staff

14:36:01 attorneys in the Tacoma Office.

14:36:02 Lesly.

14:36:03 » Lesly:  Hi, everyone.  My

14:36:07 name is Lesly.  I am
14:36:11  with NWIRP.

14:36:12 I have been working here about

14:36:14 a year.  I'm excited what we do.

14:36:15 I did been working with team

14:36:16 clients my whole time here.  I

14:36:18 have definitely even though it

14:36:20 has only been one year I have

14:36:22 definitely seen the difference

14:36:24 before COVID and now on just

14:36:25 the type -- the work that we do

14:36:27 and how it has been affecting

14:36:29 us at the detention center.

14:36:30 » Jorge:  Great.  Thank you so

14:36:32 much.  And, you know, of course,

14:36:35  you know, most of you who are

14:36:38 joining today are close friend

14:36:40 of northwest human rights

14:36:42 project and know our work

14:36:44 encompasses a lot of different

14:36:46 areas of work both in terms of

14:36:47 our direct are legal services

14:36:49 work and our systematic

14:36:50 advocacy.  But the reason we

14:36:52 wanted to focus on immigration

14:36:53 detention is because as we

14:36:54 talked about the intensity of

14:36:58 the issue and how the impact is

14:37:00 being felt today.  But before

14:37:02 we talked a little bit about

14:37:04 right this moment we wanted to

14:37:05 give a little bit of a broader

14:37:07 picture of a context and a

14:37:10 little bit of historical

14:37:11 background about how we got

14:37:14  here in terms of

14:37:16 this immigration detention

14:37:17 system.  You happen to invite

14:37:19 Tim to talk a little bit about

14:37:21 what -- the overview of how

14:37:23 this history has developed, how

14:37:25 do we end up here with this

14:37:27 massive system of immigration

14:37:28 detention in the United States.

14:37:30 Tim, could you share a little

14:37:31 bit about that?

14:37:33 » Tim:  Yeah.  Yeah.  Thanks. 

14:37:35 I guess first let's start with

14:37:38 a little bit of interaction. 

14:37:41 So we're going to put up a poll

14:37:43 and if folks want to take a

14:37:46 guess on sort of 1980, how many

14:37:48 people were locked up by

14:37:49 immigration and had to sleep

14:37:50 inside of a detention center on

14:37:54 an average night?  So
14:37:57  put in

14:37:58 your best guess many there is

14:37:59 no prize.

14:38:00 » Rebecca:  That is great.  We

14:38:04 have about 30% of folks voted. 

14:38:05 Wonderful.  You're all so great

14:38:06 doing this voting thing.  I'm

14:38:07 going to leave it open for

14:38:09 about five more seconds and

14:38:13 then I'll show the results.
14:38:24 Half of you got the right

14:38:26 answer.  A little over 1600

14:38:28 people were locked up in the

14:38:32 country on an average night. 

14:38:35 And -- by immigration in 1980. 

14:38:37 And, so, let's -- we'll try to

14:38:38 fill in the gaps.  Let's look

14:38:41 at in 2019 are, we'll put up

14:38:44 another poll.  In 2019, what

14:38:46 was that same number for

14:38:49  the country on an

14:38:51 average night?  Let's see what

14:38:52 folks end up with.

14:38:53 » Rebecca:  Y'all are doing

14:38:55 great on this.  I'm going to

14:38:56 leave it open for about five

14:39:00 more seconds.
14:39:02 » Tim:  This is nice because

14:39:04 you do all the work.  I just

14:39:08 sit here.  So folks
14:39:09  -- even

14:39:11 sort of more I think seeing

14:39:13 where I was going with it but

14:39:17 the number is 49,400 for 2019.
14:39:19 Although actually in the

14:39:21 beginning or sort of the fall

14:39:24 of 2019, that's like fiscal

14:39:25 years but the fall of 2019 it

14:39:28 was up to over 50,000.  It was

14:39:31 like up to 55,000 people who

14:39:33 are locked up around the

14:39:35 country.  You know, it's kind

14:39:36 of remarkable.  You think about

14:39:38 that number from 1980 that

14:39:42 around the country there were
14:39:43 1600 people who were locked up

14:39:46 and were sleeping on an average

14:39:48 night inside a detention center.

14:39:49 That is about the number that

14:39:52 had been locked up at the

14:39:53 Northwest Detention Center in

14:39:56 Tacoma.  The detention center

14:39:58 in Tacoma houses -- it can lock

14:40:02 up a maximum of
14:40:04  1575 people,

14:40:05 community members, and you know

14:40:07 so those numbers are pretty

14:40:08 close.  It was a national

14:40:11 number in 1980.  The growth in

14:40:12 immigration detention has been

14:40:16 traumatic since that time
14:40:19  and

14:40:21 it has been different by a few

14:40:23 different things that changes

14:40:25 logs many 1996 there was a

14:40:26 change in immigration law that

14:40:28 did a lot of terrible thing for

14:40:29 immigrants but it included a

14:40:30 huge expansion of what is

14:40:32 called mandatory detention. 

14:40:33 Where instead of people being

14:40:35 able to have an opportunity to

14:40:36 be released and fight their

14:40:39 cases outside of detention,

14:40:41 they weren't allowed to even

14:40:42 seek release from Immigration

14:40:44 Judge and were stuck inside

14:40:46 detention for a the length of

14:40:47 their case.  That really

14:40:49 dramatically increased the

14:40:50 length of detention.  Through

14:40:53 the growth in immigration

14:40:54 detention through the years

14:40:55 another major trend had been,

14:40:58 you know, a sort of shift in

14:41:00 detention to private detention.

14:41:05  So rather than either using
14:41:06 ICE run facilities where, you

14:41:09 know, immigration and customs

14:41:12 enforcement, the immigration,

14:41:14 Federal agency, whether they're

14:41:15 sort of running the facility

14:41:17 themselves or they sometimes

14:41:19 use county facilities and rent

14:41:20 out space at county facilities.

14:41:23 That used to be a much higher

14:41:24 percentage of the work of the

14:41:26 detention population of folks

14:41:27 detained around the country. 

14:41:29 That is really shifted

14:41:30 dramatically.  I think the

14:41:32 numbers now are something like

14:41:33 70% of the people in the

14:41:36 country are

14:41:39 locked up in private detention

14:41:40 centers even here in Tacoma

14:41:43 whereie company called the GEO

14:41:46 group, one of the two

14:41:48 largest detention sensor in the

14:41:50 country, they run the one here

14:41:52 in Tacoma and making dramatic

14:41:54 profits off of locking people

14:41:56 up and that, you  know,

14:41:58 plays a role in, you know, in

14:42:00 lobbying money then going to

14:42:03 politicians to continue the

14:42:07 growth of immigration detention.

14:42:08 I think there is -- I could

14:42:10 sort of go on for is along time

14:42:12 talking about detention and I

14:42:14 mean, it has grown, you know,

14:42:15 there was a lot of people

14:42:17 detained under the Obama

14:42:18 administration many I think

14:42:19 that we were looking at by the

14:42:23 end of the Obama administration
14:42:25 there was something like 30,000

14:42:27 people detained on an average

14:42:29 night.  But again, that number

14:42:31 has grown dramatically under

14:42:33 this administration up to over

14:42:34 50,000 people a night.  This is

14:42:36 all done, you know, with

14:42:38 congressional funding.  This is

14:42:39 taxpayer money that is going to

14:42:41 do that.  The funding just in

14:42:45 the last few years for
14:42:47 detention has risen from

14:42:49 something like $1.8 billion a

14:42:52 year up to $3.1 billion a year.

14:42:55 So the money for it has

14:42:56 dramatically grown many that is,

14:43:00  you know, congressional Kateing

14:43:02  money for this money. 

14:43:04 Congress plays a role in

14:43:05 controlling detention and play

14:43:08 a role in reducing it, too.

14:43:10 » Jorge:  Great.  I just want

14:43:12 to remind you that there are

14:43:13 space for questions in the chat

14:43:15 so if you have questions, feel

14:43:16 free to put them in there and

14:43:18 I'll be, you know, putting them

14:43:22 to our panelists as we go along.

14:43:23 And thank you for that overview,

14:43:25  Tim.  I think one thing that

14:43:27 is really important as we talk

14:43:29 a broader context is also of

14:43:31 course to center this

14:43:32 conversation of the fact that

14:43:34 we're talking about individual

14:43:34 human beings that are going

14:43:37 through in system and, so, I

14:43:40 wanted to ask Lesly, start with

14:43:42 Lesly to just invite you, Lesly,

14:43:44  to share a little bit about

14:43:46 what would -- what would the

14:43:47 experience of somebody who end

14:43:48 up in immigration detention

14:43:51 center and immigration

14:43:53 detention especially in Tacoma

14:43:54 for example look like, how

14:43:56 would they end up there and

14:43:58 what would it look like, what

14:44:01 would their, you know,

14:44:02 detention time there during --

14:44:05 you know, we use the word

14:44:06 "detention" but it is really

14:44:08 incarceration, right, they're

14:44:10 essentially in what the context

14:44:11 we consider a prison and the

14:44:14 reason we use the label of

14:44:15 detention center it is

14:44:17 considered civil.  It is not a

14:44:19 criminal punishment.  But

14:44:20 anybody who looks at this space

14:44:22 I think it is essentially a

14:44:24 prison, right?  So what -- what

14:44:25 can you tell us a little bit

14:44:27 about what experience of

14:44:29 someone that you worked with

14:44:31 looks like for that journey

14:44:32 into the detention center and

14:44:34 through the detention center?

14:44:36 » Lesly:  Yes.  So, for

14:44:38 example, one of the ways people

14:44:40 end up at the Tacoma detention

14:44:42 center is if they're asylum

14:44:45 seekers.  Asylum seekers right

14:44:47 now are being placed in

14:44:48 detention as soon as they are

14:44:50 here.  We recently had a client

14:44:52 who was a young woman from

14:44:54 Venezuela.  She was a student

14:44:55 there.  She wanted to be a

14:44:59 reporter.  She had
14:45:01  her company

14:45:02 did not align with the

14:45:04 municipal government.  As an

14:45:06 activist, she was then

14:45:09 persecuted and had to flee. 

14:45:10 She traveled through South

14:45:12 America and when she arrived at

14:45:15 the  US Mexico border, she

14:45:18 went through what the US -- the

14:45:21 US policy for metering and

14:45:23 before an asylum seeker would

14:45:25 be able to arrive at the US

14:45:28 border, ask for asylum, have a

14:45:31  a credible [NAME]

14:45:34 interview and likely be paroled.

14:45:36 My client would have likely

14:45:38 been paroled.  But now she was

14:45:40 forced to wait at the US Mexico

14:45:42 border.  She was given a number,

14:45:44  placed on a list and forced to

14:45:45 wait possibly months before she

14:45:46 was able to come into the US

14:45:48 and seek asylum and start that

14:45:51 process.  In this case, she did

14:45:53 not feel safe in Mexico at all.

14:45:56 She came into the US.  So she

14:45:58 crossed at the southern border.

14:46:00 But through ICE detention she

14:46:02 ended up here in Tacoma.  That

14:46:05 is how she became my client. 

14:46:09 As my client,
14:46:10  we

14:46:11 tried to have a bond hearing

14:46:13 and she lost because she was an

14:46:15 asylum seeker and she did not

14:46:17 have the US ties that the judge

14:46:19 was looking for many because we

14:46:21 lost we tend with her case. 

14:46:22 Because she -- and she actually

14:46:24 had a very strong case.  She

14:46:26 was able to win her asylum

14:46:28 claim and now reunited with her

14:46:31 family but this is a clear new

14:46:34 process of asylum seekers being

14:46:35 put in detention and how a lot

14:46:38 of them are now at the Tacoma

14:46:41 detention center.

14:46:42 » Jorge:  Thank you, Lesly. 

14:46:43 That touches on one of the

14:46:44 questions that Fernando asked

14:46:46 when we were talking earlier

14:46:48 about the number of people

14:46:49 actually in detention center

14:46:52 inside the US and Fernando is

14:46:53 pointing out there is actually

14:46:55 kind of another group that is

14:46:57 not included in that count that

14:47:00 are people who as Lesly mentioned

14:47:02  are blocked from entering and

14:47:04 who have been, you know, this

14:47:06 was -- you know, as you heard,

14:47:08 even before the pandemic there

14:47:09 was, you know, thousands of

14:47:11 people, tens of thousands of

14:47:12 people likely.  There is not a

14:47:13 real good number the way that

14:47:15 we have numbers for the people

14:47:16 in the immigration detention

14:47:17 system for the people who are

14:47:19 pushed back across the border

14:47:20 and still many of them

14:47:22 thousands of them still remain

14:47:23 as of this moment waiting for

14:47:25 the opportunity to be able to

14:47:27 seek protection here in the US.

14:47:29 And so the numbers that we were

14:47:32 sharing to answer Fernando's

14:47:33 question do not account for

14:47:34 that for those people who are

14:47:36 still trying to be able

14:47:40 to come in.  Can -- Tim, can

14:47:41 you share a little bit about

14:47:42 the experience because in

14:47:45 addition to the folks who are

14:47:48 asylum seekers we also have

14:47:50 folks who have been long time

14:47:51 residents here in the US and

14:47:52 still end up in detention.  Can

14:47:54 you share a little bit what a

14:47:56 situation like that how

14:47:57 somebody could end up in that

14:47:59 situation like that?

14:48:01 » Tim:  Yeah, sure.  I can

14:48:05 talk about one of my clients,

14:48:06 V
14:48:07 un.  He had lived in

14:48:09 Washington for many 

14:48:11 years.  I think about 15 years.

14:48:13 He would come over to the

14:48:15 United States from Vietnam when

14:48:18 he was a teenager.  He -- yeah.

14:48:20 He had gone to some school in

14:48:23 the US and then had  gotten

14:48:25 a job.  Was working when he was

14:48:29 a young man he had you know

14:48:31 experimented with drugs several

14:48:34 times.  Never had any criminal

14:48:37 problems then.  Had several

14:48:38 kids with a  partner. 

14:48:42 They ended up separating.  And

14:48:44 then later on he had been

14:48:46 working and he was fishing in

14:48:49 Alaska most seasons.  Would

14:48:51 come back and ended up getting

14:48:54 addicted to methamphetamines

14:48:55 and getting convicted for

14:48:58 possession of methamphetamine. 

14:49:00 And because of that -- so even

14:49:03 though he had had a green card,

14:49:07 his whole adult life, he
14:49:07  for

14:49:09 certain types of convictions,

14:49:11 even people with green cards

14:49:13 can be -- can -- the government

14:49:16 can try to deport them.  It's

14:49:17 not necessarily related

14:49:19 actually to sort of how series

14:49:21 the offense is but rather sort

14:49:23 of how the immigration laws

14:49:25 interact with the conviction

14:49:28 that someone gets.  And, so,

14:49:31 after he had been convicted and

14:49:35 served a short time in jail,
14:49:37 immigration picked him up from

14:49:39 the jail actually on Christmas

14:49:42 every of 2015.  So instead of

14:49:43 spending Christmas with his

14:49:44 family, which he would have

14:49:47 done, he ended up at the

14:49:49 Northwest Detention Center. 

14:49:52 And fortunately we believe he

14:49:53 was eligible for something

14:49:55 called LPR cancellation or sort

14:49:56 of essentially it is a way in

14:49:59 the law to ask the judge for a

14:50:00 second chance.  You say I have

14:50:02 convictions that could lead to

14:50:03 deportation.  But I have all

14:50:05 these other positive things

14:50:06 that should give you a chance

14:50:08 to be able to stay in the

14:50:09 United States.  And, so, you

14:50:11 know, he went forward with his

14:50:12 case.  But the government

14:50:14 actually raised saying that

14:50:15 just the fact that he had

14:50:18 admitted, you know, Ed he had

14:50:20  he had talked

14:50:22 about his prior use of drugs

14:50:24 and trying to come clean how he

14:50:25 really wants to stay clean and

14:50:27 to be able to get back with his

14:50:28 family and working and all the

14:50:30 good things that he had been

14:50:34 doing.  And yeah.  The ICE

14:50:34  said
14:50:35  he was not even

14:50:37 eligible to ask for is asecond

14:50:38 chance because of that that

14:50:40 admission of drug use.  We ended

14:50:41  up taking the case on appeal

14:50:43 went up to the 9th circuit and

14:50:47 finally were able to get him

14:50:47  and
14:50:48  then the case got

14:50:50 sent back down.  But during

14:50:53 this whole time Mr. Vun was

14:50:55 detained for a total over three

14:50:57 and a half years.  He had two

14:50:59 little kids.  Actually for

14:51:00 several years of that time they

14:51:02 transferred him from the

14:51:04 detention center in Tacoma. 

14:51:05 His family is from Olympia. 

14:51:08 They transferred him to Alabama.

14:51:10 So he was away, you know, he

14:51:11 could not even see his kids at

14:51:15 all in person for several years.

14:51:18 And yeah, finally about a year

14:51:21 ago he -- we finally had the

14:51:22 final court hearing in front of

14:51:25 the Tacoma Immigration Judge. 

14:51:26 He was grand a second chance

14:51:29 and he was released and able to

14:51:31 reunite with his kids, his Mom

14:51:33 and his family and that was a

14:51:34 really great moment.  But, you

14:51:38 know, three and a half years
14:51:40 three and a half years locked

14:51:42 up from his family.  That is

14:51:43 another option.  Even folks who

14:51:45 had green card for so, so long

14:51:47 and have been in a part of the

14:51:49 community for so long, you know,

14:51:50  even they face getting picked

14:51:52 up by ICE and had the

14:51:55  and the possibility

14:51:57 of being depoured and detained

14:51:58 for is avery long time.

14:52:00 » Jorge:  Thank you, all.  I

14:52:01 have a question.  Danny had a

14:52:02 question that I think this

14:52:05 might be a good time to tackle.

14:52:09 When -- and either you, Tim or

14:52:11 Lesly, whoever wants to tackle

14:52:12 this one.  What are the

14:52:13 conditions -- when we talk

14:52:15 about people being detained,

14:52:17 you talked, Tim, someone being

14:52:19 detained for three and a half

14:52:21 years and, Lesly, you talked

14:52:22 about your client being

14:52:23 detained for almost a year many

14:52:26 what is it like?  I mean

14:52:28 obviously we here a lot from

14:52:29 client -- what do you hear from

14:52:30 clients about what their

14:52:32 condition are like and what --

14:52:34 you know, we hear of course in

14:52:36 the press a lot about that. 

14:52:36 Your experience of what you

14:52:38 hear from client about the

14:52:40 condition of people being

14:52:44 inside?
14:52:46   Do you want to start,

14:52:47 Lesly?

14:52:48 » Lesly:  Yes, I can start. 

14:52:51 So I think, you know, we hear a

14:52:53 lot of different things with

14:52:55 clients, I think.  When I first

14:52:56 started a lot of the things

14:52:59 that are a concern are like

14:53:01 their meals, their dietary

14:53:04 restrictions, medical care. 

14:53:05 Some of our clients have

14:53:06 reported that they don't get

14:53:08 the medication that they

14:53:11 required.  For example, I had

14:53:13  type 1 diabetic patient --

14:53:16 client who required insulin and

14:53:18 he was not able to get that

14:53:21 from the detention center due

14:53:23 to miscommunication about what

14:53:25 type of diabetes he had.  You

14:53:28 know, they also can work but it

14:53:31 is a pay of one dollar a day

14:53:34 which we also do not think that

14:53:38 is correct in any way.
14:53:39   So I

14:53:42 think with COVID I thinking the

14:53:44 conditions have worsened.  A

14:53:47 lot of our clients have had

14:53:50 many -- have a lot of the high

14:53:52 risk factors.  I had a client

14:53:54 who had both diabetes and high

14:53:55 blood pressure and he was very,

14:53:57 very, very worried for himself.

14:53:59 He had a lot of -- he had been

14:54:00 in the US for a long time.  He

14:54:02 had a lots of kids here.  He

14:54:04 was the primary support for his

14:54:07 children.  He was detained for

14:54:11 a couple of months and
14:54:11  and

14:54:13 thankfully we got him out as

14:54:14 quickly as possible.  In that

14:54:16 time his health was

14:54:18 deteriorating.  So we did -- we

14:54:21 tried a parole request

14:54:22 explaining the high risk

14:54:24 factors and it was denied.  We

14:54:26 tried bond and it was also

14:54:30 denied.  And he like
14:54:31  he was in

14:54:32 one of the pods that was

14:54:34 quarantined for a while and he

14:54:36 was tested and thankfully that

14:54:38 whole pod was tested negative. 

14:54:40 The but the fear and like the

14:54:43 inability to be free in that

14:54:44 space.  Especially when we're

14:54:45 supposed to be socially

14:54:47 distancing and they can't

14:54:49 because it is so crowded. 

14:54:50 They're not releasing people. 

14:54:54 So I think the conditions have

14:54:56 worsened right now but we're

14:54:58 still trying to do the best

14:55:01 that we can for our clients.

14:55:02 » Jorge:  That is great. 

14:55:04 Thank you, Lesly.  And I

14:55:05 appreciate we're getting some

14:55:07 great questions on the chat.  I

14:55:08 appreciate it.  We're going to

14:55:09 start trying to tackle as many

14:55:12 as we can.  One thread that I

14:55:13 saw from a couple of questions

14:55:14 that I wanted to clarify

14:55:16 because folks asked about the

14:55:17 issue of children in

14:55:19 immigration detention.  So just

14:55:21 wanted to clarify that

14:55:23 there are children who end up

14:55:26 in immigration detention in one

14:55:30 sense which is that right now

14:55:32 immigration has what they refer

14:55:36 to as family detention centers
14:55:38 where children with their

14:55:41 parents are held in immigration

14:55:43 detention centers in Texas and

14:55:44 Pennsylvania is where they're

14:55:47 currently held.  So children,

14:55:49 you know, actual underage

14:55:51 children are not held --

14:55:52 they're not supposed to be held

14:55:55 I guess I should say at the

14:55:56 Northwest Detention Center.  I

14:55:58 can tell you we had clients who

14:56:00 we believed were underage who

14:56:02 ICE claimed were over 18 who

14:56:04 have been detained because ICE

14:56:07  ICE

14:56:08 claimed they were adults but it

14:56:10 is not generally policy to hold

14:56:11 people in immigration detention.

14:56:13 I will say that there is -- has

14:56:15 been a pattern of children who

14:56:17 arrived at the border who are

14:56:18 unaccompanied around who get

14:56:20 pleased with the ultimately

14:56:22 placed with the office of

14:56:23 refugee  resettlement and

14:56:26 when they turn 18 they can --

14:56:27 the day literally that they

14:56:29 turn 18 they can be transferred

14:56:30 into adult immigration

14:56:33 detention center.  So you know

14:56:36 it does happen that we have

14:56:39 very young people in

14:56:39 immigration detention centers

14:56:41 but in Tacoma, you know,

14:56:43 generally we -- you know,

14:56:45  except for those

14:56:47 exception I mentioned when ICE

14:56:48 had somebody they thought was

14:56:49 18, children are generally not

14:56:52 detained there.  And, so, that

14:56:53 is to address some of the

14:56:57 questions about children in

14:56:58 immigration detention.  Can we

14:57:00 -- Lesly, you were talking a

14:57:01 little bit about the COVID

14:57:03 situation in the detention

14:57:04 center.  I wanted to ask Tim to

14:57:06 talk a little bit about that

14:57:07 and about you know we talked

14:57:09 about the concerns that we have

14:57:13 about COVID and maybe, Tim, if

14:57:14 you could give a little bit of

14:57:16 an update on some of the work

14:57:17 that we have been doing precisely

14:57:20  to tackle that issue of the

14:57:22 concerns that we have around

14:57:23 COVID and the impact it could

14:57:26 have on people in detention.

14:57:27 » Tim:  That's right.  We have

14:57:30 -- from the very sort of very

14:57:32 beginning of the pandemic have

14:57:36 been concerned about our

14:57:37 clients at the immigration

14:57:39 detention and everyone at the

14:57:40 detention center and the

14:57:42 pandemic.  Medical experts

14:57:44 around the country have been

14:57:46 clear that prisons and

14:57:48 detention centers, you know, in

14:57:50 closed confined in-door spaces

14:57:53 are particularly dangerous for

14:57:55 folks with this pandemic.  And,

14:57:59 so, you know, we filed -- I

14:58:00  the
14:58:02  sort of first sort of

14:58:04 case in the country pushing for

14:58:06 release of folks who had

14:58:10 medical asort of vulnerabilities

14:58:14  to COVID 19
14:58:15  and so filed that

14:58:17 suit.  That case is still

14:58:19 pending.  We have not forced

14:58:21 the release of those folks;

14:58:23 although, out of the nine

14:58:25 initial plaintiffs in this case,

14:58:27  I think six of them have been

14:58:30 released at this point.  And,

14:58:32 then, we followed that up with

14:58:34 actually a class-action case

14:58:36 for all medically vulnerable

14:58:38 people at the detention center.

14:58:41 That case also remains pending.

14:58:43 The judge at this point has not

14:58:45 ordered the release of those

14:58:46 who are medically vulnerable. 

14:58:48 But that case, you know, we

14:58:50 continue to fight that case

14:58:51 around the country.  Some sorts

14:58:53 have ordered release of folks

14:58:55 who are medically vulnerable

14:58:58 and other judges haven't.  One

14:59:00 of the things that we have -- I

14:59:01 mean, the fact that we brought

14:59:05 this suit while we remain, you

14:59:07 know, remain steadfast in

14:59:09 believing that folks should be

14:59:11 released.  There is no safe way

14:59:14 to detain folks through this

14:59:16 pandemic.  We believe sort of

14:59:17 all the detention centers but

14:59:18 particularly here in this

14:59:21 pandemic but what -- what this

14:59:23 -- some of the work that the

14:59:25 lawsuit has achieved is there

14:59:27 has been a massive testing

14:59:29 effort at the detention center

14:59:32 of one time testing and then

14:59:34 actually ICE has unisons the

14:59:36 beginning of this lawsuit has

14:59:38 really shifted their policies. 

14:59:42 Is now testing everyone for --

14:59:45 on entry

14:59:46 to the facility so they're

14:59:48 actually offering COVID testing

14:59:51 as they are detained at the

14:59:53 Tacoma facility.  That means

14:59:56 that there is a little bit more

14:59:58 sort of accountability and

14:59:59 actually those changes have ended

15:00:01  up -- they have spotted folks

15:00:05 who did have COVID 19 and so

15:00:06 you know we hope that that

15:00:08 continues to mean that there is

15:00:10 not a major outbreak at the

15:00:12 detention center.  But we also

15:00:14 fear with guards coming in and

15:00:15 out and many people who

15:00:16 interact and still interacting

15:00:17 with the community who -- where

15:00:19 the number is unfortunately for

15:00:22 the virus have grown that it is

15:00:24 just sort of a matter of time. 

15:00:27 So a main concern but the fight

15:00:28 continues to make sure that

15:00:30 folks are released and they're

15:00:34 able to be saved.
15:00:37 » Jorge:  Great.  Thank you. 

15:00:38 I muted myself because there

15:00:40 was a fire truck outside. 

15:00:41 There is a few questions to

15:00:42 talk a little bit about the

15:00:45 process in the immigration

15:00:46 detention center.  I think it

15:00:48 is time to talk a little bit

15:00:49 and Rebecca I'm going to ask,

15:00:51 we had this final poll here

15:00:53 just to see and I notice from

15:00:54 the earlier poll questions that

15:00:58 we got a pretty good audience
15:01:00 that knows the topics pretty

15:01:02 well.  So this question that we

15:01:05 wanted to ask was around the

15:01:06 percentage of people in

15:01:07 immigration detention and so

15:01:09 we're going to focus on -- I

15:01:12 think the numbers nationally

15:01:14 are pretty close but at the

15:01:15 Northwest Detention Center, how

15:01:17 many people in detention have

15:01:18 access to legal 

15:01:19 representation?  How many

15:01:20 people get to go to court,

15:01:22 immigration court, at the

15:01:22 immigration detention and have

15:01:25 a lawyer by their side?  If you

15:01:28 could tell us your estimate of

15:01:32 how many people -- what

15:01:33 percentage of people have

15:01:35 representation.  Rebecca, you

15:01:36 let me know when you feel like

15:01:38 we have enough answers.

15:01:39 » Rebecca:  Yeah, I'll leave

15:01:41 it open about five more second.

15:01:42 We have 70% of the folks that

15:01:44 voted.  I'm going to end the

15:01:48 polling and share the results.

15:01:49 » Jorge:  Yes.  The majority

15:01:51 is correct.  So the correct

15:01:55 answer is 10%.  And this is
15:01:57  one

15:01:59 of the things that is z, you

15:02:01 know, among the many

15:02:03 distressing things about the

15:02:04 immigration detention system

15:02:06 and just generally the

15:02:06 immigration court system is the

15:02:08 fact there is no right to

15:02:10 appointed attorneys in

15:02:11 immigration court with one

15:02:12 minor exception I was actually

15:02:15 part of the work that that NERF

15:02:17 and some of our partners did

15:02:19 that had mental disabilities

15:02:22 that prevented -- there is a

15:02:24 right appointment of council

15:02:28 and those folks and the Franco
15:02:29 case to get to a point of

15:02:31 represent teation but generally

15:02:33 speaking, folks do not have

15:02:37 access to council.  So Tim
15:02:38 , can

15:02:39 you talk a little bit about

15:02:43 what that means?  And folks are

15:02:44 talking a little bit in the

15:02:45 chat.  There are questions

15:02:47 about you know getting bond and

15:02:49 being able to get released from

15:02:51 detention.  How does that --

15:02:52 what does that look like when

15:02:53 you -- when you're talking

15:02:55 about a system where only 10%

15:02:59 of people have

15:03:00 ?
15:03:01 » Tim:  That is a good

15:03:05 question.  I think that it is
15:03:09 the immigration system is

15:03:11 remarkably complicated. 

15:03:12 Folks, there is always an

15:03:13 experienced lawyer for ICE who

15:03:17 is there in court.
15:03:19   And so the

15:03:21 data, you know, really supports

15:03:22 the difference that it makes. 

15:03:24 There is data from around the

15:03:26 , including from

15:03:28 New York, where New York City,

15:03:30 New York State guaranteed full

15:03:31 representation for New Yorkers

15:03:35 who end up in detention and so

15:03:36 there they actually are able to

15:03:38 study from almost no one having

15:03:39 lawyers to everyone having

15:03:41 lawyers and what the difference

15:03:43 is and there are folks without

15:03:45 representation.  The success

15:03:46 rate.  The ability of them to

15:03:49 get out of detention.  They are

15:03:50 about 4% of the time they would

15:03:52 get released without

15:03:55 representation where it is with

15:03:56 representation, it was about

15:03:58 44% of the time.  They were 11

15:04:01 times more likely successful

15:04:02 outcome on their case with

15:04:04 representation and so it makes

15:04:07 a huge difference.  And I mean

15:04:11 we do a lot of work.  Giving
information
15:04:13  to folks who don't

15:04:15 have lawyers who are who were

15:04:16 at the detention center and we

15:04:19 try and we're trying to refer

15:04:21 to pro bono attorneys and our

15:04:22 own lawyers as much as we can

15:04:24 but our resources are limited. 

15:04:28 And, you know, it is -- I mean

15:04:29 that is one of the very hard

15:04:32 parts of our job is sort of

15:04:33 knowing the difference that a

15:04:35 lawyer can make in someone's

15:04:36 case.  Knowing that people --

15:04:38 they would have a shot, right,

15:04:40 if they had a lawyer and times

15:04:42 not being able to provide that.

15:04:44 And so that is certainly I

15:04:46 think something that drives --

15:04:47 that drives me and drives all

15:04:49 our staff in our work is really

15:04:53 trying to -- to -- where we can,

15:04:54  right, is to be different

15:04:56 folks and be able to make that

15:05:00 difference on those cases.

15:05:00 » Jorge:  That is great. 

15:05:02 Lesly, I come to you in one

15:05:04 second.  But, Tim, one of the

15:05:05 questions somebody posed is,

15:05:06 if you look at the people who

15:05:07 are going through the

15:05:09 immigration detention system

15:05:10 like the folks that are right

15:05:11 now at the Northwest Detention

15:05:13 Center, what is your estimate

15:05:15 of how many of those people

15:05:16 ultimately end up being

15:05:19  deported?  On average?

15:05:22 Do we have a good sense of that?

15:05:23 » Tim:  That is a good

15:05:24 question.  I don't have a full

15:05:25 sense but if we sort of

15:05:27 combined the two numbers that I

15:05:29 sort of just gave, right?  So,

15:05:31 you know, those numbers are a

15:05:35 year or two old.  I
think
15:05:36  with the sort of

15:05:37 different ways that this

15:05:38 administration has kind of rigged

15:05:40  the system I think those

15:05:42 numbers probably have dropped. 

15:05:43 But even using those numbers,

15:05:46 you know, 10% are represented

15:05:48 so, you know, 90% of the folks

15:05:50 are looking at a say 4% success

15:05:52 rate and pped the others are

15:05:55 looking at a 44%, it is not

15:05:57 that much more than, you know,

15:05:59 than four.  We were talking 6%,

15:06:02 7% are going to have, you know,

15:06:05 a shot of being able to stay. 

15:06:08 So, yeah, depressingly low

15:06:10 truthfully and so, yeah, I

15:06:14 think that is a major -- again,

15:06:16 you know, it both -- I think

15:06:17 both demonstrates the

15:06:19 importance of representation

15:06:22 but, also, sort of why

15:06:24 detention itself is one of the

15:06:26 reasons why detention itself is

15:06:29 so problematic.  So, you know,

15:06:30 representation rates for people

15:06:31 who are not in detention,

15:06:34 nationally are something like

15:06:37 65%.  66%.  So just because

15:06:39 folks if they're able to get

15:06:40 out, right, they're able to

15:06:43 support and get out and their

15:06:45 families and it is far cheaper

15:06:47 for private attorneys and for

15:06:49 non-profits to be able to

15:06:52 represent folks.  But, also,

15:06:53 you have access to evidence. 

15:06:55 You just have your ability to

15:06:56 actually fight your case and,

15:06:59 also, just the -- the drain on

15:07:01 someone.  You know, I gave the

15:07:05 example of Mr. 
15:07:07 Vun for three

15:07:09 and a half years detained and

15:07:11 that is an exception.  But few

15:07:12 people are able to stay

15:07:13 detained in three and a half

15:07:14 years.  To fight that case.  To

15:07:16 stay in prison for three and a

15:07:17 half years as I mentioned

15:07:18 essentially prison, you know,

15:07:20 for three and a half years is

15:07:22 incredibly, incredibly

15:07:23 difficult.  There is something

15:07:25 even I think what I had clients

15:07:26 tell me, there is something

15:07:28 almost harder about immigration

15:07:30 detention because there is no

15:07:32 fixed end.  There isn't a

15:07:33 sentence.  There is no sentence.

15:07:35 You don't have a year and then

15:07:35 you're going to be done or two

15:07:37 years.  It is at some point,

15:07:39 right?  At some point you may

15:07:41 be able to get out.  You may

15:07:42 win.  You may not.  There is a

15:07:44 lot of uncertainty and so it is

15:07:48 very hard for folks to -- the
15:07:50 tension itself drives people to

15:07:52 take deportation orders and so

15:07:54 you know again, in addition to

15:07:56 all the reasons we've talked

15:07:58 about, the dangers and the

15:07:59 separation from families but

15:08:01 that's sort of the real damage

15:08:03 it does to people's ability to

15:08:05 have due process in their cases

15:08:07 and another reason why it is so

15:08:09 terrible.

15:08:10 » Jorge:  Great.  Thank you so

15:08:12 much, Tim.  Lesly, could you

15:08:13 talk a little bit about your

15:08:16 experience of what having an

15:08:19 attorney means in terms of like

15:08:20 you know changing the outcome

15:08:21 for folks?  There was a

15:08:22 question a little bit if you

15:08:24 could talk a little bit about

15:08:27 this as well of just how COVID

15:08:29 has changed kind of your

15:08:29 day-to-day work in terms of

15:08:30 being able to provide

15:08:32 assistance to people inside the

15:08:34 detention center.

15:08:37 » Lesly:  Yes.  So I think to

15:08:39 address our like the change in

15:08:41 our work, I think we have been

15:08:43 working from home for a couple

15:08:45 of months now.  But the

15:08:47 detention center keeps -- still

15:08:49 has a lot of people detained. 

15:08:50 Our clients are still there. 

15:08:53 The Tacoma court never stopped.

15:08:56 So our work never stopped.  It

15:08:59 just became a little bit harder

15:09:01 to adjust and not being able to

15:09:03 go to the detention center and

15:09:05 see our clients as available as

15:09:08 we had it before.  Part of that

15:09:10 is, you know but, having better

15:09:11 communication, scheduling time

15:09:13 to talk to our clients.  But

15:09:15 that also means it is a very

15:09:18 less -- it is a lot less

15:09:20 confidential.  Clients are not

15:09:22 allowed to go into the training

15:09:24 client rooms.  So it is -- made

15:09:25 us be a lot more creative in

15:09:27 the ways that we can best

15:09:29 represent our clients. 

15:09:32 Everything is done telephonically

15:09:34  or via e-mail.  So things have

15:09:36 changed.  But our hardship is

15:09:38 nothing compared to our clients

15:09:42 work detained.  In terms of how

15:09:44 representation matters,

15:09:47 particularly right now what I

15:09:49 see is that, you know, as a new

15:09:51 attorney, I'm still learning a

15:09:53 lot of the nuances of

15:09:54 immigration law.  I have the

15:09:55 support of amazing attorneys

15:09:58 along with me.  But if it is

15:10:00 difficult and it is complicated

15:10:03 for an attorney who has all the

15:10:05 resources of other attorneys

15:10:07 and the Internet and the

15:10:08 brilliance of the people around

15:10:12  me to not have that and be

15:10:14 detained and all of it that

15:10:16 comes with it is a big

15:10:18 difference.  For example,

15:10:19 whether or not you're eligible

15:10:21 for relief.  I have a client

15:10:24 who has a conviction and

15:10:25 immigration -- the immigration

15:10:27 charges make him pretty much

15:10:28 ineligible for anything.  But

15:10:31 we were able to argue and say

15:10:33 that they don't match.  So a

15:10:36 lot of critical analysis came

15:10:37 into play about comparing the

15:10:39 state law versus the Federal

15:10:42 Law and arguing against an

15:10:44 experienced prosecutor from the

15:10:46 government saying that we're

15:10:48 wrong and the judge saying that

15:10:50 we're wrong.  But we were able

15:10:52 make the argument for our

15:10:54 client and now he's eligible

15:10:56 for asylum and constellation of

15:10:58 removal.  Thing that he

15:10:59 wouldn't have -- it would have

15:11:00 been very hard if not

15:11:02 impossible for him to have been

15:11:04 able to do on his own.  So I do

15:11:05 think representation makes a

15:11:08 big difference because now he

15:11:09 has at least two different

15:11:10 forms of relief that he's

15:11:14 eligible for as opposed to none.
15:11:17 » Jorge:  Great.  Thank you,

15:11:18 Lesly.  And, you know, there is

15:11:22 a few questions that are asking

15:11:26 us about, you know, the

15:11:27 rationale behind the whole

15:11:30 system why does it exist and Kareem

15:11:34  put it what is behind the tale

15:11:36 is it money?  I wanted to ask

15:11:37 you, Tim, to talk a little bit

15:11:39 about that.  Why is it that we

15:11:41 have immigration detention in

15:11:42 this country and the way we

15:11:44 have and you know I think when

15:11:47 we hear the debate frequently

15:11:50 like, ICE or some politicians

15:11:52 will say, you know, we need to

15:11:54 have detention, right, because

15:11:55 people don't show up to court

15:11:58 or because of people are a

15:11:59 danger to community or

15:12:01 something like that.  What is

15:12:05 the data say about those claims
and
15:12:06  why do you think that we do

15:12:08 have this kind of massive

15:12:09 system?

15:12:10 » Tim:  That is a good

15:12:13 question.  A lot to it.  I

15:12:16 think that -- I mean so I guess

15:12:17 first I'll sort of start with

15:12:19 some of the data on that and

15:12:21 then try to explain a little

15:12:22 bit about what I see as the

15:12:25 reasons.  I think that so the

15:12:28 data is pretty darn compelling.

15:12:30 I think on folks getting

15:12:31 released from detention and

15:12:35 showing up to court, there is

15:12:35 ,
15:12:37  you know, the

15:12:39 asylum seekers who were

15:12:41 released from detention attend

15:12:42 court hearings at something

15:12:45 like 98.5% of them attend court

15:12:48 hearings.  Nearly 100% of folks

15:12:51 that data is similar for, you

15:12:54 know, families and mothers with

15:12:56 children who are released even

15:12:58 over long period of time

15:12:59 showing sort of greater than

15:13:02 90% attendance for folks for

15:13:03 asylum seekers going to their

15:13:05 hearings.  And there is also --

15:13:07 I mean even, you know, there is

15:13:08 also  alternatives.

15:13:10 There have been several sort of

15:13:13 pilot projects of systems that

15:13:16 provide support for folks for,

15:13:18 you know, folks in immigration

15:13:20 proceeds and asylum seekers and

15:13:22 other folks going to

15:13:23 immigration court and they have

15:13:25 nearly 100% attendance rates. 

15:13:26 Those numbers are actually even

15:13:27  higher and do approach

15:13:29 100% when folks are represented.

15:13:31 So that also, you know, plays a

15:13:33 role and folks again, I think

15:13:34 folks have a feeling when I

15:13:36 have a fair shake and I have a

15:13:38 lawyer, right, there is even

15:13:39 more reason to show up in 

15:13:40 court.  Even without that there

15:13:42 is very, very high attendance

15:13:44 rates.  So I guess that is sort

15:13:45 of on the first question.  I

15:13:47 think on the second one, on the

15:13:49 danger, I mean, I always, you

15:13:52 know, that question feels like

15:13:54 kind of a trick question.  You

15:13:56 know, folks who h have had

15:13:58 contact with the criminal legal

15:14:00 system before they end up in

15:14:03 immigration detention.  So my

15:14:07 client, Mr. Winn, if
15:14:07  he had

15:14:09 happened to be born in the

15:14:11 United States, right, and then

15:14:13 he would have served, you know,

15:14:15 been convicted of the same

15:14:18 offense.  Served time in jail. 

15:14:19 And then he would have gone out,

15:14:21   right?  Society would

15:14:22 have deemed him safe to release

15:14:24 back to the community, right? 

15:14:26 And that is -- and so you know

15:14:29 I am always of a little a

15:14:30 little bit puzzled by that

15:14:32 question, right, that for

15:14:33 someone who has gone through

15:14:35 and the criminal legal system

15:14:37 has made decisions and I mean

15:14:39 -- the criminal legal system

15:14:41 has many of its own issues but

15:14:43 those are going to be the same

15:14:46 sort of for folks across sort

15:14:48 of where folks are born and so

15:14:50 I -- I don't really see the

15:14:53 sort of argument that in fact

15:14:55 you know you're sort of saying,

15:14:57 well, we should -- we should

15:14:58 deport American citizens then. 

15:15:00 That there is not -- that oh,

15:15:02 they're too dangerous to

15:15:04 release.  I think that sort of

15:15:06 question we have clients, right,

15:15:07  we have clients that -- had

15:15:11 we're born too -- 2 months old.

15:15:12 They were born -- happen to be

15:15:15 born in a refugee camp and then

15:15:17 came to the US when they were

15:15:18 2 months old.  They had been

15:15:20 born 2 months later.  They were

15:15:21 a United States citizen and

15:15:23 then they're not too dangerous

15:15:24 to release and then they're

15:15:25 back home with their families

15:15:27 and not in an immigration

15:15:28 detention center.  It is those

15:15:30 kind of differences to me you

15:15:32 know really highlight how -- I

15:15:33 don't think that argument

15:15:36 really sort of hold up.  We

15:15:39 have clients where, you know,

15:15:42 their parents became a US

15:15:43 citizen when they were two days

15:15:46 after they turned 18.  If that

15:15:47 had been three days earlier

15:15:49 they would have been a US

15:15:51 citizen and then not too

15:15:52 dangerous to release.  Those

15:15:53 things don't make sense.  They

15:15:56 don't correlate with dangerousness.

15:15:58 Those are some of the reasons I

15:15:59 feel like that doesn't quite

15:16:01 hold up.  I think that in terms

15:16:04 of why has detention grown the

15:16:06 way it has?  I brought up a

15:16:07 little bit of this.  I do think

15:16:11 the profit motive is a massive

15:16:13 factor, you know, because of

15:16:16 the -- I mean really

15:16:17 significant profits like

15:16:19 companies like the GEO group

15:16:21 and used to be the correction

15:16:22 corporation of America and they

15:16:26 rebranded as core civic in a
15:16:28 weirdly heroic kind of way many

15:16:31 I think there is also -- I mean

15:16:33 there are deep connections if

15:16:35 we look at sort of the sort of

15:16:38 expansions in sort of the

15:16:40 racist criminal legal system

15:16:43 and prison growth through sort

15:16:46 of 80s and 90s and sort of, you

15:16:50 know, a lot of the sort of you

15:16:51 know fear mongering that was

15:16:52 happening at that time.  There

15:16:55 is a lot of ties there with,

15:16:58 you know, people talk about 96

15:16:59 crime bill and you know those

15:17:01 are the same times as people

15:17:04 are also expanding mandatory

15:17:05 detention for folks in

15:17:07 immigration custody.  We also

15:17:10 see a lot of our clients are

15:17:12 also, you know, get targeted

15:17:14 within the criminal legal

15:17:17 system because of the color of

15:17:19 their skin and who they are and

15:17:22 then that ends up impacting

15:17:24 them in the immigration system.

15:17:26 And I think that it is a lot of

15:17:27 different factors but certainly

15:17:29 when you look at sort of what

15:17:32 the timing and where the laws

15:17:34 that have affected the growth

15:17:35 have been, you think a lot of

15:17:37 that has been had been tied

15:17:38 with, you know, a lot of sort

15:17:41 of fear mongering and sort of

15:17:45 racism in the -- in our country
15:17:47 and in -- connected with the

15:17:48 criminal legal system and that

15:17:50 I do think, yeah, big profit

15:17:52 motive as well as really driven

15:17:55 the growth.

15:17:56 » Jorge:  Great.  Thank you. 

15:17:58 We had a few questions that

15:18:00 related to since we're talking

15:18:03 a little bit about this issue

15:18:06 of releasing people that asked

15:18:07 like if we could explain a

15:18:08 little bit like who is eligible

15:18:11 for release.  So Lesly, can I

15:18:13 ask you to talk a little bit

15:18:15 about, you know, who can get

15:18:16 released and what are the

15:18:18 barriers for people to get

15:18:19 released from detention these

15:18:21 days that you see?

15:18:25 » Lesly:  Yes.  So I think the

15:18:28 two -- I tend to see three ways

15:18:32 through ICE through parole
15:18:36 through courts and through bond

15:18:38 and their individual hearing,

15:18:41 their merit hearing.  Lately we

15:18:43 had not had a lot of luck with

15:18:45 parole requests.  We tend to

15:18:47 try to add as much evidence as

15:18:49 we can as to how they wouldn't

15:18:53 be a flight risk.  And how
15:18:53  they

15:18:55 have taxed the community but

15:18:56 they would have a support

15:18:58 system and continue going to

15:18:59 their immigration court

15:19:01 hearings after being released. 

15:19:04 And we -- we have not had much

15:19:08 success.  I have sent a few and

15:19:10 haven't heard anything positive

15:19:12 back in terms of bond, the

15:19:15 Court tend to look at whether

15:19:16 someone is a danger to the

15:19:18 community and whether someone

15:19:21 is a flight risk.  So danger to

15:19:22 the community usually if

15:19:23 someone has a conviction we try

15:19:26 to show, you know, that they

15:19:28 have rethat bill ad or that

15:19:31 they have the support -- rethat

15:19:32 bill ad or have the support to

15:19:34 avoid getting in to trouble

15:19:36 again many similarly with the

15:19:38 flight risk people's ties to

15:19:40 the community matter a lot. 

15:19:42 You have seen that with asylum

15:19:45  seekers that don't have

15:19:47 the same ties as someone that

15:19:48 has been here for a long time. 

15:19:49 My client that I had had

15:19:52  mentioned earlier from

15:19:53 Venezuela, she had family

15:19:57 members here.  Now they're also

15:19:59 seeking asylum but they were

15:20:02 not legal proven residents or

15:20:03 US citizens.  That is one of

15:20:05 the issues that the judge found

15:20:07 when he declared that my client

15:20:09 was a flight risk.  And, you

15:20:10 know, we appealed that and we

15:20:13 did win the appeal because we

15:20:14 didn't believe that that was

15:20:16 sufficient to progress if

15:20:18 someone was a flight risk. 

15:20:19 Especially if they're here

15:20:21 because they're in fear and

15:20:22 they do have that family

15:20:25 support.  And then the third

15:20:28 being the meriting words.  They

15:20:30 hear -- they present their case.

15:20:33 The judge rules in their favor.

15:20:37 But in term of eligibility, it

15:20:39 all depend on how they were

15:20:41 marked as to whether they were

15:20:44 marked as arriving or whether

15:20:45 they were marked as present for

15:20:48 all sorts of eligibility

15:20:50 concerns and I laugh because

15:20:51 we've had a lot of difficulties

15:20:54 with that lately as to whether

15:20:55 -- first in getting the

15:20:57 document because of COVID. 

15:20:59 They're making that even more

15:21:01 difficult.  We can't see our

15:21:02 client and then we can't get

15:21:04 the paperwork.  But -- for

15:21:07 example, if they're marked as

15:21:08 present then they're eligible

15:21:12 for bond.  And then things like
15:21:14 that because of all these

15:21:15 complications it is not always

15:21:17 clear and we have to see the

15:21:19 paperwork.  That is one of the

15:21:21 main things about being able to

15:21:22 represented someone is that you

15:21:24 do get access to that paperwork

15:21:26 and you're able to give them

15:21:27 all the forms of relief that

15:21:30 you see available.  And I think

15:21:34 Tim can explain more on the

15:21:38 present and Riling matter
15:21:38 .

15:21:40 » Tim:  If you're confused,

15:21:42 think about folks who might not

15:21:43 be fluent English who are

15:21:44 trying to navigate this on

15:21:46 their own, right?  It is

15:21:48 remarkably confusing.  I think

15:21:49 that -- I don't know that

15:21:51 getting to that -- into the

15:21:53 weeds.  I think one of the

15:21:54 things that we have actually

15:21:55 been dealing with is we talked

15:21:56 a little bit about what is

15:21:57 happening down at the border

15:22:00 but what had been happening is

15:22:01 for a while is there is this

15:22:02 new policy under this

15:22:04 administration called sort of

15:22:06 remain in Mexico.  So they were

15:22:08 rather than accepting asylum

15:22:09 seekers in the United States to

15:22:10 seek safety they were actually

15:22:12 forcing them, take them in and

15:22:14 then force them back to Mexico.

15:22:14 After you wait, right

15:22:15 [ Captions will appear here. 
On standby. ]

15:22:17 You wait like you were at the DMV

15:22:19  or something.  You were at the

15:22:20 -- you get this number.  You

15:22:23 wait for months in this

15:22:23 incredible dangerous situation.

15:22:26 The US has sort of forced this

15:22:28 kind of refugee camp kind of

15:22:31 thing down -- you know,

15:22:33 impromptu, it is intense

15:22:34 incredibly dangerous.  People

15:22:36 are trying to kidnap them and I

15:22:38 know folks down at the border

15:22:39 who are doing the legal work. 

15:22:42 The first thing they do when

15:22:43 meet with people is scan in

15:22:44 their documents.  Because they

15:22:46 expect people will kidnapped

15:22:47 and documents will get taken

15:22:50 from them.  At least if people

15:22:51 escape from the kidnapping they

15:22:52 can access the evidence they

15:22:54 can use to make their case. 

15:22:56 Incredibly dangerous.  Folks

15:22:58 then are forced to -- taken to

15:23:00 the United States, detained. 

15:23:01 If they pass the first

15:23:02 screening interview by an

15:23:05 asylum officer then they are

15:23:07 are sent back to Mexico where

15:23:08 they do their hearings from

15:23:12 Mexico and so
15:23:12  we have

15:23:13 actually been fighting this

15:23:15 where people are eligible for

15:23:17 bond.  The US will detain them.

15:23:19  Return them to Mexico.  Pass

15:23:20 interview.  Bring them back for

15:23:22 hearings.  On their coming back

15:23:23 they change the charging

15:23:24 documents and say, actually,

15:23:26 you're no longer eligible for

15:23:28 bond.  Right?  Sort of use the

15:23:29 fact that they scented them to

15:23:33  sent them to Mexico co
15:23:36 taking people's eligible for

15:23:37 bond.  We continue to fight

15:23:38 that.  I hope some day we'll

15:23:40 find success or, you  know,

15:23:43 the policy will change, right,

15:23:45 that the policyie at the Dallas

15:23:47 level will end that outrageous

15:23:48 program and we won't have to

15:23:50 deal with that any more.  But,

15:23:51 yeah, there are so many issues

15:23:54 and again I hope that while I'm

15:23:55 sure that some of this is very

15:23:57 confusing I hope that sort of

15:23:59 illustrates just sort of how

15:24:00 hard a lot of this is

15:24:02 especially for folks who don't

15:24:04 have representation.

15:24:05 » Jorge:  Thank you, Tim, and

15:24:07 Lesly, Lesly, I'm going to come

15:24:10 back to you in a minute how

15:24:12 people can get involved.  A

15:24:13 couple of quick questions

15:24:14 people posed.  Lesly talked a

15:24:15 little bit about people being

15:24:17 grand bond and you guys talked

15:24:20 about grand bond.  It is great

15:24:22 to give grand bond but one of

15:24:24 the problems people have is not

15:24:26 being able to pay it.  Even if

15:24:27 you are successful there.  So

15:24:29 that is one additional barrier

15:24:30 that we have here locally is

15:24:32 that we have one of the highest

15:24:35 rates of bond in the country. 

15:24:37 I think tied for first place in

15:24:41 a bad first place attrition in

15:24:43 this class the average bond

15:24:45 report issued I think last year

15:24:49 was $15,000 and that is unlike

15:24:49 sometimes people are familiar

15:24:51 with the credible justice

15:24:52 system you might be able to pay

15:24:53 a portion of that.  You

15:24:54 actually have to pay the full

15:24:56 amount.  And then somebody

15:24:57 asked about whether there is an

15:24:59 opportunity to file like habeas

15:25:01 petitions in these kind of

15:25:04 cases.  In some situations you

15:25:05 might be able to do that but

15:25:06 that generally comes when

15:25:09 you're talking about like very

15:25:10 prolonged detention.  Usually

15:25:12 not early on in the process

15:25:13 there is a lot of barriers and

15:25:15 jurisdictional things the

15:25:18 courts have put in place and

15:25:20 Supreme Court curtailed a lot

15:25:23 of avenues to the detention

15:25:24 through the Federal courts. 

15:25:26 Yes that can be done in some

15:25:28 situation sw but it is fairly

15:25:29 limited and we end up with

15:25:30 people being in detention for a

15:25:33 significant period of time.  So

15:25:35 Lesly, let me ask you as we

15:25:37 start wrapping up here, you

15:25:40 know, for folks who are

15:25:41 listening and were thinking

15:25:43 okay, how can we help?  What

15:25:45 are ways that we can -- you

15:25:48 know, try to address some of

15:25:50 the circumstances that people,

15:25:51 you know -- I want to remind

15:25:52 everybody we have hundreds of

15:25:54 people right now at the

15:25:56 Northwest Detention Center that

15:25:58 shall locked out bind bars

15:26:01  behind bars right

15:26:02 now, what can the community do

15:26:06 for them at this point?

15:26:07 » Lesly:  Thank you.  One of

15:26:08 the things talking about bond

15:26:10 is donating to

15:26:12 organizing that help pay for

15:26:15  bonds.  You know

15:26:17 personally when I had clients I

15:26:19 had reached out to La

15:26:23 Resistencia and aid northwest

15:26:24 bond funds that helped with

15:26:28 that donating items or time to

15:26:32 aid northwest.  Donating to us

15:26:35 to expand our cat so we want

15:26:36 represent more people, getting

15:26:38 involved with organizations

15:26:39 like aid northwest or La

15:26:43 Resistencia.  Showing your

15:26:45 support through legislation.  I

15:26:47 think that is one of the big

15:26:50 ones to dismantle this whole

15:26:52 system that is in place putting

15:26:54 pressure on legislators, voting,

15:26:56  educating yourself about the

15:27:00 system and educating others.
15:27:02 And that's about all I can

15:27:04 think of right now.

15:27:06 » Jorge:  Thank you, Lesly. 

15:27:09 Yeah, the bond fund that Lesly

15:27:11 was referencing I'm putting the

15:27:13 direct link for folks is the

15:27:15 fair fight bond fund which is

15:27:16 coordinated through the

15:27:17 Washington immigrant solidarity

15:27:19 network and  really

15:27:20 important resource for

15:27:23 community members.  Tim, any

15:27:24 other additional thoughts you

15:27:25 would like to share on that

15:27:27 question or necessary as we get

15:27:30 ready to wrap up?

15:27:32 » Tim:  I think Lesly raised

15:27:34 most or a bunch of  really

15:27:36 good ideas.  There is a lot of

15:27:37 great organizations locally.  I

15:27:39 think that, you know, and she

15:27:40 mentioned, you know, sort of

15:27:42 how to get involved I think at

15:27:43 a policy level.  I think that

15:27:45 there is a really important

15:27:47 role that we all can play in

15:27:50 influencing our elected

15:27:52 officials.  I think both sort

15:27:54 of locally rights actually just

15:27:58 -- just this week the Tacoma

15:27:59 City Council passed a

15:28:00 resolution sort of calling for

15:28:02 release of folks from the

15:28:03 detention center in light of

15:28:05 the pandemic.  I think

15:28:07 continuing to make sure that

15:28:09 local governments stay involved

15:28:11 and are doing their part to

15:28:12 push.  I think there is a role

15:28:16 to play at the state level as
15:28:19 well.  There are policies --

15:28:21 there was actually a bill last

15:28:24 session around ending private

15:28:28 detention.  They were pushed to

15:28:29 -- we talked about New York

15:28:30 where they fully fund

15:28:32 representation for New Yorkers

15:28:34 who end up in detention, right,

15:28:37 there could be full funding for

15:28:39 Washingtonias.  There is some

15:28:40 support but not all the way

15:28:42 there.  And then at the

15:28:44 national level, right?  We talk

15:28:45 about local but these are

15:28:47 Federal laws, right?  And so

15:28:49 the biggest change is certainly

15:28:51 can come from the Federal level.

15:28:53 I think that realistically

15:28:55 these days that is a little

15:28:57 harder to imagine.  But there

15:28:59 still are important pleases and

15:29:00 actually we brought up a little

15:29:02 -- the funding, right, that

15:29:04 still happens, right?  Congress,

15:29:07  you know, has a hard

15:29:08 time doing some thing.  Many

15:29:10 things maybe.  But it does pass

15:29:12 budgets and so really making

15:29:15 sure that you're letting your

15:29:17 elected Federal representatives

15:29:19 and Senators know where your

15:29:21 priorities lie in terms of fund.

15:29:22  We have here in Washington,

15:29:25 right, Senator Murray is on the

15:29:28 appropriations.  Senator ways

15:29:31 and means.  There are important

15:29:33 players in the Washington

15:29:35 delegation in terms of the

15:29:38 budget and you know while you

15:29:39 may sort of assume that of

15:29:40 course they believe in these

15:29:42 things, right?  I think when

15:29:43 you get down to the details of

15:29:45 what the funding levels are,

15:29:48 how important does that become

15:29:49 in the negotiations that are

15:29:50 the budget process, you know,

15:29:53 the more that folks let their

15:29:54 -- let their feelings be known

15:29:56 to their elected officials that

15:29:57 really does make a difference. 

15:29:59 Even if there is not a vote

15:30:00 that you're going to see or a

15:30:01 new law, right, that budget

15:30:04 process happens

15:30:06 and you can play a role and

15:30:08 influence how big does our

15:30:09 detention system keep growing

15:30:11 or can we start pushing to end

15:30:14 it.  So just a few other ways

15:30:16 to get involved.

15:30:17 » Jorge:  Thank you, Tim. 

15:30:19 Just as we close, one thing I

15:30:22 want to clarify, we mentioned

15:30:24 our colleagues at aid northwest.

15:30:27 Just to clarify, aid northwest

15:30:28 doesn't run the bond fund. 

15:30:30 That is done through Washington

15:30:32 solidarity network.  But

15:30:34 northwest does help with phone,

15:30:38 to help people in detention be

15:30:40 able pay for phone calls.  We

15:30:41 appreciate the work that

15:30:42 they're doing as well.  I

15:30:43 wanted to clarify that.  And

15:30:45 there is one question very

15:30:47 quickly just to address

15:30:48 something that Tim said about

15:30:49 work at the state level and

15:30:52 what authorities the state has

15:30:54 and efforts and other states

15:30:56 including California to try to

15:30:58 prohibit this kind of private

15:30:59 imgation detention center. 

15:31:00 That is correct.  There is a

15:31:03 law now that will go into

15:31:05 affect in the future.  There is

15:31:07 some litigation pending against

15:31:09 that.  So you know there may be

15:31:11 some issues that have to go up

15:31:12 to the courts regarding that. 

15:31:14 There have been efforts here in

15:31:16 Washington State and I suspect

15:31:17 that will happen again at the

15:31:19 next legislative session. 

15:31:21 Please stay, you know, in tune

15:31:23 for that that -- tuned to the

15:31:24 issues and we'll definitely be

15:31:26 sharing information as efforts

15:31:27 at the local level develop

15:31:30 because we do think that the

15:31:32 state does have authority to

15:31:34 regulate immigration --

15:31:35 detention when it is being done

15:31:37 by private entities at least. 

15:31:38 You think it would be a

15:31:39 different situation if this was

15:31:42 an ICE run operated facility. 

15:31:44 As we talked about, this is a

15:31:46 private company operating here

15:31:48  locally.  So we -- we

15:31:51 could probably -- I know Lesly,

15:31:52 Tim and I could talk for hours

15:31:54 about this but we want to be

15:31:56 respectful of people's times. 

15:31:56 We e really appreciated the

15:31:58 time you spent with us.  We'll

15:32:00 continue having these

15:32:01 conversations and engagements.